Toppling “Europe’s Last Dictator”: A Conversation with Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya

First of all, for everyone, I'm so glad that you found time to come to listen to me. It means that what's happening in neighboring countries to you is important for you. I think, really, that Belarus is part of the European family of countries, and people of Belarus want to return to this family. We, at the moment, are deprived of this right. Belarus is my, first of all, my homeland. I really want my country to be developed economically, to see how people in Belarus enjoy their lives, not just surviving. Because, you know, in comparison with other European countries, we are in a rather bad position. I would just want to remind you the history of our region. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, for example, we, Belarus and Poland, were at the same point of economic development. Maybe Belarus was even more developed because we had so many big enterprises. And 30 years passed, and now Poland is one of the advanced economies in Europe, and Belarus's economy is at the initial point. You know, nothing has changed in Belarus. We are stuck in time. And I think that a new generation grew up in Belarus who don't have this nostalgia of Soviet Union times, and they want to be like Europeans. We want to see that our pensioners are enjoying their free time in cafes, but in Belarus pensioners are surviving. We want more opportunities for Belarusian young generation. We want more investments into our country because we really have a wonderful nation. Hard-working people, very disciplined, low-obedient. And I want my country to be a reliable neighbor and partner for the European Union. Not just at the moment, you know, threat, social threat, and blackmailing, because Lukashenko seized power in our country, and just don't have a possibility for Belarusians to develop. And this is what Belarusian people showed back in 2020, that we want changes. We are fed up with this dictatorship, and we want to move forward. But it's so difficult really to dismantle 30 years dictatorship, but Belarusian people are ready for this. We are not giving up our fight despite all these repressions we have in the country. And it's so important now in new geopolitical context, you know, in the context of the war in Ukraine, to explain to people in European countries that, you know, you are enjoying democracy. You take it for granted. You think that, you know, it will never change. But democracy is rather fragile because dictators, they are using very ugly methods of influencing your minds, of poisoning your minds with their narratives. And just I want to urge democratic nations that you have to care about what you have, but also help those who are in the front line of fight against dictatorship.

You know, my path in politics was very unexpected, you know, for me. I never prepared for this. I don't have, you know, proper education for this. I call my path absolutely accidental. Of course, I was ordinary woman, housewife who was upbringing up children. And it was my husband, actually, who became popular blogger in Belarus. He just was visiting city after city, just talking to people, just asking their opinion. Believe me, nobody never in Belarus asked people's opinion. What do you think of the country? What maybe you want changes? And he became very popular and people asked him maybe you will try to become president. Of course, we understood the situation that Lukashenko is a dictator, so on and so forth. But my husband just, you know, agreed and he declared this that he wants to participate in next elections. And the next day he was detained. He was detained by this regime. And, you know, at that moment I felt that I need to do something for my husband. Because what he was doing was very important for the people. And just I went to Central Election Commission and gave my documents, you know, instead of my husband.

We had never discussed this. Just my role at that moment was to take care of my husband. I was so scared for him because we knew that political opponents of Lukashenko were disappearing very easily. But the first step I made out of love to my husband, you know, I didn't think about, you know, scale of my maybe future path, you know. I just did it for him. But it was so unexpected then that so many people joined this pre-election campaign. Two more opponent candidates appeared on the scene and Lukashenko detained one more of them. One more managed to escape the country. So it was like new page of our history. People, suppressed people in Belarus saw each other. We realized that we all together want something new. Because, you know, for many years we were sure that I'm alone in these thoughts, you know, I want changes. But I don't see anybody else, you know, who want the same. And now just in the moment we saw that we are millions of people. And this feeling of shoulder, you know, it was very important at that moment. So I, according to all the alternative councils, Lukashenko lost elections. I just won the elections, but, you know, Lukashenko didn't agree with this, you know. And he unleashed the most brutal terror against Belarusians who went to the streets peacefully to demand free and fair results of the elections. And since then, for four years already, four and a half, these repressions have never stopped. And I had to leave the country because of threats from the side of the regime and continue my path already in exile.

Honestly speaking, I haven't a clue about politics. You know, it was... I had to learn so fast, you know, how a European Union is structured, what is the difference between European Council and Council of Europe, what parliamentarians are doing and what's the difference, you know, from the government. No, honestly speaking, it wasn't usual knowledge of ordinary Belarusian person. But, first of all, I felt huge support of Belarusian people. I felt how our wonderful nation was ready to self-organize. You know, they helped me so much, they were so active on the grounds, you know, peaceful protests, they continued many, many weeks in a row. We felt huge solidarity from our democratic allies, from democratic countries. Maybe the reaction on the situation in Belarus wasn't very fast, I mean, not very active. And, for example, the first sanctions against Lukashenko's regime because of the brutality were imposed only in six months after the beginning of our revolution. And the time was lost. So, my first lesson of the politics was that there are words and there are actions. So, we heard a lot of words of solidarity, words of condemnation of this regime, but actions were made much, much later. So, and, you know, for four years we managed to build alternative institutions of power in exile. Why in exile? Because it's impossible to do anything active in Belarus, because for these four years all their alternative free media have been ruined in the country. All NGOs have been liquidated, all political parties, alternative parties, you know, also have been liquidated, and leaders of these parties, like possible opponents of Lukashenko, were imprisoned or in exile. Since 2020, at least half a million of Belarusians had to flee the country because of repressions. It's activists, it's businessmen, doctors and teachers, you know, high-profile specialists, because of repressions, because so many people were on the streets, so many people wanted, you know, a peaceful change situation in the country. So, it's not easy path, you know, for me personally. I learned a lot, of course, but it's a path full of challenges. And I think that, again, you know, people who live in a democracy, they can't even imagine how it is, you know, what is dictatorship. Because when I talk to people, they ask, okay, what is parliament doing? Why they don't, you know, dismantle Lukashenko? He just only, like, he was only president, you just can, you know, can vote against him. And people don't understand that we are using the words like parliament, government, and, you know, political parties that are suitable for democratic world, but they, like, misused by dictatorship. And we have to explain, you know, this to the world, and it's also one of my work to keep, to rediscover Belarus, actually, for different nations and to keep Belarus high on the agenda. Because the attention span, believe me, is very short, and we have to work hard to keep, like, Belarus in the minds of not only politicians, but also of ordinary people.

So just to give some context, in Belarus, every, no one elections, okay, let's say so, have been recognized as free and fair by international organization. And every five years, there were opposition uprising in Belarus. The difference between the previous one and uprising of 2020 was in the amount of people. In previous years, it was like, you know, couple of thousands, maybe tens of thousands of people, and back in 2020, it was already millions. I think it's because, first of all, we started to use Internet, you know, the information is spread momentally, you know, among population, because in previous years, it was leaflets, it was newspapers, telephones, and nothing else. And now just you put post that we are gathering this date, this time, and millions people on the spot. So, and again, Lukashenko didn't catch this moment, because he stayed in the past, where only leaflets, you know, take place, and he, like, lost this connection, you know, to Belarus, and he's like previous generation. But also, as I said already, new generation grew up who saw Europe, who saw how our country can look like after changes, and huge amount of Belarusians have never been applauded, how they can know how life can be better if they see only propaganda on TV, where propagandists spread these narratives about rotten West, you know, that NATO is a threat to Belarus, and all this stuff. And, yeah, people felt huge solidarity against repressions, against brutality of the regime, because in 2020, our peaceful uprising was suppressed so brutally. There were so many beaten people, women, men, adults, pensioners, and people were shocked. People who have never been involved in politics, they saw the real face of dictatorship. They realized that something is wrong. And after 2020, Belarusians became as politicized as never before, and this is continuing.

Let's say a couple of words about previous years. It seems like the elections were not recognized as free and fair. There were always political prisoners in Belarus, but years passed, and the democratic world, though they condemned brutality of the regime and fraudulent elections, they just returned to business as usual after some time. It was like a vicious circle. They traded off with political prisoners, lifted sanctions that were imposed before, and it was like years and years after. And this is actually the strategy of dictators. They know that new politicians will come who maybe haven't been with the people at the moment of their uprising, and dictators think that maybe the next politician will be more loyal to Belarus, and it will be impossible to make a deal with him, and it happened year after year. But 2020 became irreversible for this dictatorship, because our democratic partners maybe saw that at this moment Belarusians are really determined. It's a real desire of people to change the situation in Belarus, and since then we see consistency in the policy regarding Belarus. We see that all those restrictive measures on Lukashenko's regime, like sanctions, like political isolation, policy of non-recognition remains the same, and instead our democratic partners strengthened their ties with democratic forces. We really became strong as a movement, as a society. We formalized relationships with many countries, including the USA, Canada. We have agreements with the European Union, with the European Parliament. We formalized relationships with national parliaments and governments. And this is about recognition. So our democratic neighbors now see us as partners for communication, not Lukashenko's regime. And this is the process of delegitimization, not on the paper only.

Yeah, absolutely. First of all, for Belarusian people, it was four years of brutal repressions, and huge propaganda of Lukashenko with his regime. We didn't manage to persuade people to forget or forgive what has happened in Belarus. We didn't manage to turn the page of our history. And we don't need to explain to Belarusians why Lukashenko's regime has to be ruined, why we need to build a new country. But for our democratic partners, we always have to remind them why Belarus is important. Now, in a broader geopolitical context, it's not only about brutality and repressions and democracy in the country. It's more about security at the moment.

Since 2020, we actually promote the idea that we have to have a dialogue or negotiation with this regime. Because it's our country. We will have to live together in the future. And the Coordination Council was created as a platform for dialogue. We wanted to see our opponents there and to talk about releasing of political prisoners, about transition of power in the country. But all the participants of the Coordination Council were declared as extremists or terrorists. Many of them are now in prison. So our steps towards friendship, towards reconciliation, were rejected by this regime. And since then, the situation is only worsening. Because in exile, the moment when I realized that our fight is not a sprint, it's a marathon, it might take some time, I decided to build an alternative institution of power. So now we have a clear structure. We have the Office of the President-elect. We have a united transitional cabinet as a proto-government, where my representatives are working in different directions, like in the real government. And we have the Coordination Council. It remains the same. It's a proto-parliament, where people are discussing different problems to come up with solutions. And we are trying to work together. What is extremely essential in our work is that we are cooperating very closely with civil society. We are not just politicians, civil society, something there, human rights, doing their job. We are in constant coordination, because we are a movement. All of us want to change the situation in Belarus. And it's good cooperation. We are working with the media together. Because now, as I explained to people, it's not time for competition. Of course, we have wonderful people who might be future bright politicians in Belarus, but now we stand together to bring the nation to the moment of real political competition, where everybody can promote himself or herself. But now we are like one fist, have to dismantle the regime.

Look, we actually meet many challenges. First of all, as I said, at least half a million left Belarus. And now propaganda is trying to persuade Belarusians who live in the country that these are traitors. They left Belarus, so they are not Belarusians anymore. And you are here, yes, you are in a big jail, you are our slaves, but you are like real Belarusians. And our task is to combine those who are in exile with those who are in Belarus. And it's one of my priorities not to live in this exile bubble, but to have constant communication and coordination with Belarusians on the ground. So first of all, we are talking to Belarusians through media, through alternative media who managed to restore their broadcasting from abroad. We just, you know, explaining what's happening. We are proposing alternatives to Russian wars in Belarus. We are explaining how our country will be without Lukashenko with the new, incredibly chosen government. I myself communicate in person with people, anybody can call me in particular hours, and I communicate to people on the ground. And I really feel huge energy from people in Belarus. Because it seems like, you know, this repressive machine is working very effectively, because people are really living in constant fear that they are eager to do something. Now Belarusians in Belarus are in safe mode. They are preparing for proper moments, we call it window of opportunity. But I ask people, don't sacrifice yourself in vain at the moment, you know, keep this energy inside. Those who are in exile, they can be more vocal. And we have to talk and to work for ourselves and for those who live in Belarus at the moment. Of course there are many subjects for debating, you know, for discussion. But finally we come to conclusion that, you know, it's good to have many opinions, but we have our goal. And I understand the fatigue of, this feeling of fatigue, you know, some frustration from the situation, because four years of fight, of repressions, when you are in constant fear for your relatives in Belarus, it might be exhausting. And people sometimes looking for who is guilty, you know, who is the most responsible. But as I always say, it's all our responsibility, you know, to bring Belarus back to people. Don't just get rid of the idea that one person is responsible, because it was always Lukashenko. I am main here, you know, you obey, I am deciding everything. And democracy is about responsibility first of all. Everybody can contribute into the fight and just do what he or she can on his or her place. That's why we are trying to solve difficulties to work together, you know, coordinate actions, just to avoid any disagreement.

No, the main issue that people are discussing, you know, and I think that only Tikhanovskaya didn't manage to do this, is to release political prisoners. We have thousands of people behind bars. It's thousands of relatives who are waiting their beloved friends, you know, from prison. And this is the main, the most painful topic for people. And, you know, among those political prisoners is my husband. And the biggest thing I want, you know, to do, the most I wish is to release my husband and other thousands of people.

Yeah, he's like my personal motivator, because sometimes I'm also exhausted, you know. I'm overwhelmed with duties. And when I'm exhausted, I just put myself in the place of those who are behind bars. And they rely on us. They just, their only hope is on our activities, that we will not give up and will not, like, betray all those who sacrificed their freedom, actually, you know, for us. So, he's always with me. And so, the main blame is she hasn't released political prisoners. And, again, we have to explain, look, my dear Belarusians, it's our common obligation. Like, I'm doing what I can in my position, but we are activists, you know. There are so many points how we can keep Lukashenka's regime in stress. We have to look for possibilities how to split elites, how to get inside information from Belarus, how to make sure that Belarus sounds on international, like, arena. I became a politician, an existential politician, and I think that we really advanced a lot in political recognition of democratic forces. You know, four years passed, and I remember how back in 2020, you know, some people told, oh, you know, now nobody will meet Tikhanovskaya in a couple of months, you know, everybody will forget about Belarus, nobody will care. And it's our job that the world cares about the country. And you see that, you know, we are visiting many democratic partners, leadership, and the interest is still there. And it's our hard job, you know, to keep this interest high. It's the job of our diasporas in every country, you know, to keep attention of those. Honestly speaking, in Netherlands, we have one of the most organized and active diasporas all over the world. And I am so grateful to everybody who is contributing to this fight. Because, you know, I really hear sometimes the word fatigue from our democratic partners and people, fatigue of the war in Ukraine, fatigue of Belarus. But, you know, I can't think about fatigue. Because to tell about fatigue, you know, to people behind the bus or, you know, soldiers in cold trenches who are defending Ukraine now, they don't have right for fatigue, neither can we. So, and that's why I also just want to explain day after day about the importance of standing firmly with those who are against dictatorship. Because dictatorship, like the Russian imperialism, they threaten not only Belarus and Ukraine at the moment. They are threatening democracy as it is. You know, believe me, if not to stop, like, enemy now, where they are, they will knock your doors very soon. What are you going to do then, you know, if you show your weakness, I mean, weakness of democracy? So what are you going, how are you going to defend after this?

Who is the real opposition? Look, real opposition, real democratic movement is all the people who want Belarus to become free, independent and democratic. And Mr. Sonnikov, you know, who actually, I don't know why, you know, he's, like, criticizing me a lot. But, you know, it's so easy to criticize, honestly speaking. It's much more difficult to stand nearby in one team and fight together. So I don't want to judge anybody because, you know, opinions, different opinions are important in our fight. But, you know, I really sometimes don't understand and they sometimes even offend me that, you know, just people criticizing without proposing. If you think that I'm not managing, if I do wrong or maybe you think differently have to be done, so let's discuss this. Stand together and we will just organize fulfillment of your ideas. But usually it stops on critics and nothing goes on. But, you know, it's, like, strange to have opposition in opposition. But, you know, I think that it's only, you know, plenty of opinions and we, everybody is in our democratic movement. You know, we don't, there are no, we don't have to exclude anybody. Everybody who wants changes is our partner, is part of our big donor center.

Yeah, I just wanted to start that we're again using the words that are meaningful in democracy. Because elections, you understand what elections is, you understand what, you know, electoral process. But in the country where absolutely no conditions for elections, where people are threatened to death, where no alternative candidates on the front club of Lukashenko participate, where no free media, where any locality is punished with 10, 15, 20 years or even death penalty in Belarus, you cannot organize elections. So what is happening in Belarus at the end of January, it's circus, it's farce, imitation. It is like ritual of re-appointment of Lukashenko by Lukashenko, you know, nothing else. Just forget about the word election. So that's why there will be no observers, nobody was invited, so how can we talk about elections? You know, this farce that Lukashenko, like organizing already looks like military operation. Because preventing detentions, you know, they are showing on propagandistic TV how they are preparing for this moment so many KGB, we still have KGB, you know, and policemen on the ground, like, practicing how they are going to suppress any uprising. So Lukashenko got very deep trauma back in 2020. And he, you know, repressions continue every day in Belarus, but Lukashenko still behaves as if hundreds of thousands are standing in front of his palace. He is afraid of people, he knows that he is not supported by Belarusians. So, of course we are talking about non-recognition, and I feel full consensus among our democratic partners that there will be no official recognition, because, you know, morally everybody understands that Lukashenko is nobody, he doesn't represent Belarus, but you have resolution, you need to have resolution, you need to have official statement. Because in Belarus it also does not change anything. You know, after this day of farce, Belarusians will not say, oh, okay, Lukashenko came back, you know, no, it will not happen. But how so-called elections are organized in Belarus? People deliberately brought to polling stations, because Lukashenko needs nice picture, look how many people came to vote, of course, for him. And people will have to do some act, to do something, you know, to sign something. And we propose people to put this, like, tick, yeah, in front of, against everybody. Nobody is going to count the votes. You know, this ballot votes will be ruined, like, immediately. It always happens in Belarus, but people need to do something. I'm not asking people, you know, to go to the streets, you know, and apprise, because it's not the moment of changes. It will bring nothing new in Belarus, you know. The policy of Lukashenko, of course, will not change. He's selling our country to Russia, he's recruiting our national identity, and it will be the same.

To bring, to come to the point of transition of changes or possibility of organizing fair elections, we have to weaken Lukashenko's regime as much as possible politically, to empty his, like, personal pockets that are filled with Belarusian money, to leave him in this situation of piraya toward democratic war. But on the other hand, we have to strengthen Belarusians, we have to strengthen agents of democratic forces, strengthen our civil society, media, just to be really a strong movement. And only, like, in the moment of opportunity, there will be only two alternatives for Belarusian people, for our country. It's somebody very pro-Russian who will continue the policy of Lukashenko to subjugate Belarus and Russia, and democratic opportunity, democratic forces. And at this very moment, we have to make sure that the nomenklatura of these authorities will see that, you know, with Russia nearby, it will be a dead end. You know, they don't see Belarus as a separate independent state, they look at Belarus as a satellite, and we're just really a sovereign nation, we want to develop as we want, and there will be a European perspective for Belarus. So, of course, at that moment, we also will need support and assistance in the mediation of our powerful democratic allies, like, I will not name, you know, the countries, so we will have to, at the moment of the most vulnerability for Lukashenko, we will have to have the possibility to come to a country, maybe it will be a round table, you know, between representatives of the regime and Belarusian people. Maybe it will be a coup d'etat, maybe an internal coup d'etat, actually. Hopefully, it will be a victory of Ukraine, and it will bring possibility for Belarusians, or something can happen in Russia. So, many, many scenarios can happen, but at that moment, we have to be in our strongest position and Lukashenko's regime in the weakest. And that's why our strategy looks like weaken the regime, put as much pressure as possible on the regime, but strengthen Belarusians.

First of all, it's about consistency. I have already mentioned that it's so important not to change policy regarding the countries like Belarus or Ukraine. Stand with those who need your support and assistance. Believe me, no one fight and no one war in the history hasn't been won when you are alone. We have very strong Belarusian society. Ukrainians are the bravest people and nation ever. But we need help. We cannot win this fight alone. And actually, I think it's an obligation of powerful democratic world to help those who are fighting the evil, the beasts in this world. So what we are waiting for is to be consistent in pressure. It's again about sanctions, sanctions without derogations, without loopholes. Because for many years we saw how sanctions were imposed on Lukashenko's regime, for example. But they found possibilities to not to end money, even more money, avoiding these sanctions. So sanctions without loopholes. Political isolation of Lukashenko's regime. Don't invite anybody pro-regime on different events. Don't allow this regime to spread lies about Belarus. It's of course policy of non-discrimination. Again, I want to repeat assistance to Belarusians to keep us stronger. Strong media, strong civil society, strong human rights defenders will give us a stable ground to continue the fight. Accountability. It is so important because dictators really feel impunity. Democratic world has so many mechanisms how to bring perpetrators to justice. You have international criminal court, international court of justice. You have such mechanism as universal jurisdiction. Maybe you have never heard about this. But what we see, these mechanisms don't work properly. Because we as Belarusians, our investigators, we collected so many evidences of Lukashenko regime crimes. With names, with proper articles. It's abuse of Belarusians, it's migration attack on our Muslim partners. It is abduction of Ukrainian children from occupied territories. It's dragging our country to the wall. It's hijacking of airplane. It's air piracy. All the proofs. And special investigation hasn't started yet. Why? Of course people ask why democratic institutions do not work. And I'm so grateful to Lithuania, small but very brave country, government, that's dared actually to launch referral to international criminal court to start investigation. But now to strengthen this case we need support, political and legal support of other countries. And I also feel like a little bit reluctance from powerful countries who established this institution of justice in the world. Maybe it's lack of bravery. Maybe they also don't believe in this institution. It's frustrating actually because people in Belarus, we are sacrificing lives and freedoms for democratic institutions, for this democracy. And when democracy is not working or democracy is hesitating or weak, people start asking questions. Do we really want this? I believe in democracy. I truly think that democracy is powerful enough to defeat all the dictators in the world. But I really want politicians to hold values-oriented policy but not business-oriented policy. And I want people who maybe sometimes criticize their governments. Why do you give so much money to Ukrainians? Why do you support Belarusians? We need to leave this money inside the country. I understand that it's comfort of your life. I understand that you want to forget about all the problems and concentrate on your personal life. But this approach to these problems can bring you to dictatorship as well, to very selfish attitude to the world.

So, first of all, God bless Internet. We have possibility to communicate to people in the country safely. Just if you talk about personal communication. Media is fantastic instrument. We are using all the possible social networks to reach different groups of population. People inside the country spread leaflets for people in small villages who don't have access to Internet, for example. Our younger generation, they are using mostly TikTok and Instagram to explain the situation in understandable manner for young people. Because young generation, they will not read articles in newspapers. So, explaining through this means. Telegram is very popular among Belarusians mostly for news. YouTube, of course. YouTube changed TV in Belarus. Of course, propaganda is also using all these instruments. And what they are doing, this illegitimate government, they allow YouTube, Internet in Belarus, but they declared all our free media as extremists. And if a person inside the country read this news or put like or comment and the KGB is detecting him or her, this person will be accused of supporting extremism and brought to prison for 10-15 years. So, this is the restriction. But believe me, people are so inventive inside the country. They are using two gadgets, one for life and one for reading news. Or when I once was communicating with a rather old woman in Belarus, she lives in a small village. And she said, you know, Svetlana, we are pretending with other pensioners that we are gathering and drinking tea, but we are reading news. Because these people's determination to know the truth, you know, it's overcome all the restrictions of the regime. And we see the numbers of people from Belarus. You know, they can be seen in YouTube. You see that majority, 78% of all the viewers, they are from Belarus. So, people are interested despite all the attempts of the regime to decrease the level of interest. They don't believe in propaganda anymore, you know. What's also important that people on the ground, like our intelligence in Belarus, they are like our local journalists. They provide us information what's happening in different enterprises, you know, in different cities. They provide us information for some how sanctions are supplemented, you know, about any accidents. You know, for us to broadcast it further. Moreover, we have many informants from the core, from the heart of the regime. You know, people provide us such very sensitive information about how our economy is being militarized, how we are helping Russia with different military stuff, buying microchips that are under sanctions in Russia. So, helping Russia to continue this war in Ukraine. And, of course, they are sharing this information with our partners just to prepare new restrictive measures for the regime. So, it's constant communication, you know, between people. So, yeah. Really, you know, the regime can't deprive people of the right to dream and to share and to think of the moment of opportunity.

I don't see any eagerness, you know, to stop supporting democratic movement. You know, there are no even talks that, you know, after Lukashenko's new so-called elections, you know, we'll stop talking to Tikhanovskaya. Because, you know, our fight, like, it's not about personalities. You know, it's about reliability of the movement. You know, and I'm not, you know, if there is more recognized, you know, person instead of me, I will be only happy because it's difficult, difficult job. But we, like, build such a structure of our democratic movement that is understandable for our partners. We are working as these structures, you know, we are embedded into different institutions of Europe with this structure. So, like, I was given mandate, but not only by Belarusians, but also by our democratic allies, you know, to be stable until free and fair elections, you know, happen. Because I don't have mandate for five years. But until we all together, it's not about me, we all together can bring the movement of free and fair elections close.

You know, Lukashenko and Putin, they have the symbiotic friendship. They need each other in the movement and they use each other in the movement. This relationship was very interesting through all these years because in winters, Lukashenko made friendship with Russia because he needed cheap oil and gas. In summers, he needed some money from Europe, so he made friendship with Europe. So, it was like always see-saw. And now, they need each other as well. That's why, you know, they are allies. Lukashenko needs Putin as political and economic backup. It's actually Putin who saved Lukashenko back in 2020 because without his support, Lukashenko wouldn't survive politically at all. And Lukashenko is actually ready to sell our country, our independence, our sovereignty in exchange of his personal power because Putin supported Lukashenko politically. Putin is Lukashenko's very loyal and very cheap partner. You know, he looks on this economic support of Lukashenko as on military costs and the war costs. And he's like providing him some very cheap loans or some support just in exchange of using our infrastructure, using our territory at any moment they need. They use our airspace. You know, they launch missiles that are going through our territory like attack in Ukraine. And they use Belarus as a source of blackmailing of our neighboring countries. They are making these Russian-Belarusian drills, making provocations on the borders. They are sending migrants through Russia, you know, to Russia and Belarus to attack and blackmail Poland and Lithuania. They decided to deploy nuclear weapons in Belarus. You know, our country is nuclear-free. And they decided to deploy just to subjugate Belarus even more, to anchor the presence of Russia in Belarus for many, many years ahead. In the case of retaliation attack, it will be on the territory of Belarus, not in Russia. So at the moment, you know, they need each other. But we already see the signs. When this attempt to take Kiev for three days failed and the Ukrainians showed the hugest bravery, we see how Lukashenko, you know, he sometimes tries… You know, he wants, of course, to avoid responsibility for this war crime. And he tries to untie his small boat from big Russian ship like I'm not with him. But, of course, you know, he is the same war criminal. So that's why, you know, they're keeping to each other. They're sharing ideas, you know, how to suppress society, how to be brutal dictators.

First of all, I want to say that Ukrainians have to be given everything possible they need, you know, to win this war. It's not just territories or sovereignty of one country. It's a fight between democratic world and autocracy on the land of Ukrainian-Belarus. So it should be like the law, you know, for democratic world. And we need, of course, unity of European Union and the United States and other powerful countries in this approach. In the moment of negotiations, it is so much discussed, but not everybody understands, you know, how it will look like. Ukraine has to be in a much stronger position than Russia. And this is, of course, a duty of – not a duty, you know, but it's cooperation of Ukraine with the democratic world. But, of course, we don't have to underestimate the role of Belarusian land in this geopolitical turbulence. And we, like, urge – we talk to our democratic partners that, look, without democratic Belarus, there will be no peace and stability and security in the whole region. Don't – like, in this negotiation process, Belarusian aspect should be included for sure. Because if we deal with Ukraine and leave Belarus for one day later, we will return to solving a few issues later. Or, you know, Belarus can be given even its cancellation price, you know, to Putin. So it will be constant region of turbulence. From Belarusian territories, when Lukashenko is there, that is supported by Putin, there will be always a source of problems and troubles and blackmailing. So there will be no stability in Europe until Belarus is free. So these two issues have to be discussed simultaneously. And we ask our democratic partners, when the process of negotiation will take place, demand withdrawal of Russian troops not only from Ukraine but also from Belarus, including nuclear weapons. And demand not interfering into internal policy of Belarus. We, Belarusians, do everything to arrest ourselves. But you can help us to avoid, you know, this creeping occupation that we see at the moment in Belarus. So I want to believe that values in this world, in democratic world, is much more important than real politics in this very situation. Because returning again to democracy, the dictators, they don't respect democracy because they think democracy is weak. Because you are not united. Because you are always hesitating. You can't agree not to each other. And they challenge you constantly. You know, this hesitance of democracy emboldened dictators. They think that they can cross red line after red line, just challenges what will be your response, what you can do. And I'm sort of sure that democracy is strong. The problem is that, you know, societies, you know, people might be poisoned by propaganda. So it's real responsibility on ordinary people at the moment, you know, to talk to yourselves, you know, why we should help. Why we maybe should sacrifice a little bit of our comfortable life. But to help those who are defending not only themselves, defending all of us. Because the world is changing. Dictators are learning from each other. They are making coalitions. They want to split democratic world. And it's up to us and up to you that it will not happen.

I truly believe that if in 2020 our uprising won with the help of the Ukraine, maybe this full-scale invasion, this war, you know, wouldn't happen at all. Because, of course, the crucial role of Belarus is the shortest way to Kiev. It was everything. So at that moment in 2020, we didn't know about the plans of Putin to invade Ukraine. But I'm sure they already were there. So that's why Putin supported Lukashenko so much. And, yeah, again, our land can be used again at any moment, not just, you know, regarding Ukraine. But the next aim of imposing the conditions of Russia might be Europe. It might be European nations who also maybe Russia wants to drag into Soviet Union past.

Lack of freedom was our normal state in Belarus, you know, 2020. Lack of freedom is not just when you can't speak freely. It's when you can't find justice. It's when you can't rely on your government, you know, that your government rather punish you than protect you. And remember how in 2020, it was 2019, it was COVID times. And we saw how in other countries, you know, governments wanted to take care of people, you know. Though I understand, you know, not everybody was happy with this, with all those restrictions. But in our country, what regime was saying, showing full respectful relation to Belarusians, that, look, do you see COVID? I don't see, so it doesn't exist. If people were dying, regime blamed you, yourself, guilty that you are dying. You know, it's not our job. And it was maybe the moment of first signs of self-organization of Belarusians when non-governments were taking care of Belarusians in COVID times with Belarusians. We collected money to buy these COVID tests or to buy these masks, you know, to buy these oxygen balloons, you know, to save people. And at that moment, maybe, you know, this was a huge shift in understanding of people that, you know, this government exists not for us, not for country, not for nation, not for people. They exist only for themselves, they take care only about themselves. But simultaneously, they suppress us. We don't feel safe in our country, don't feel free in our country. So, and of course, lack of freedom in, like, maybe in more narrow sense is that you are, like, live in, like, in gulag, in big jail. You don't understand the rules of dictatorship. You don't understand, can you wear white, red, white socks, because you can be detained for this, because it's the color of our national flag. Can you say the words, stop the war, because it's, like, globally, global motto, no wars, you can be detained for this. Can you buy a present for a family or for a child of repressed person, because you can be detained for this also for five years. You know, can you sing Ukrainian songs in Ukraine or in Belarus? It looks like no, because we got cases that people were again detained for two, three years for songs. Can you speak Belarusian language, our national language, our official language? We are also not sure, because we have so many cases that people are detained for speaking Belarusian language. You don't understand, you know, and you are always in stress. You don't understand what you can do, what you can't. Can you leave the country? Can you, I don't know, get visa, Schengen visa or not, because your TGB will come and will ask what do you need visa for. Maybe you want to support those extremist support. Or when you are returning from abroad, you might be interrogated on the border, just checking your mobiles freely. They have absolutely all rights, you know, this TGB and policemen search your mobile and if they don't like something, they may give some picture or straight to jail. You cannot defend yourself at all in Belarus. This is what is really a lack of freedom. And this is what democratic people, ordinary people, they can't understand. They can't believe that in the 21st century, in the center of Europe, people can live like this. Where you are in prison, for example, you are a political prisoner, you are deprived of any rights at all. You are a lack of food, you are a lack of clothes, you are a lawyer is not allowed to visit you, you can't complain, you are beaten constantly, you are humiliated constantly. It's like a real hell in prison. Like my husband and some other people, they are kept in communicado mode. I think you don't even know the word in communicado, but it means that these people are in full isolation. I haven't heard about my husband, it will be two years in March, that I haven't heard anything about him, nothing at all. I don't know if he is alive. Letters are not coming to my children anymore. And this is a new type of torturing people. They want to persuade our heroes behind the bars that the world has forgotten about you, nobody needs you. Look, nobody is writing to you, lawyers are not interested in how you act. And they want to persuade them that the world betrayed them, nobody is fighting for them.